The Narrow Path 09/11/2026

Steve Gregg: Good afternoon and welcome to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we are live for an hour each weekday afternoon, taking your calls if you have questions you'd like to call in and discuss on the air about the Bible or the Christian faith. We'll talk about that. If you see things differently from the host and want to call to disagree, we welcome you to do that as well. The number to call is 844-484-5737. That's 844-484-5737. If you'd like to be on the program today, you have a question about the Bible or the Christian faith, I'll be glad to take it in this hour. I would just say that tonight and tomorrow and the next day, I'm speaking in the Sacramento area. Tonight, tomorrow morning, and tomorrow night, I'll be speaking at the Westside Community Church in Roseville. Westside Community Church in Roseville tonight and tomorrow night, it's at 6:30. Tomorrow morning, it's a men's breakfast, so only for the men, but that's going to be at 8:00 in the morning. I'll be speaking there. Tonight, they've asked me to speak on the subject of Bible prophecy and newspaper exegesis, which is a topic I've made reference to many times, but I've never actually taught on it and I'm looking forward to doing it. That's tonight. Then tomorrow night, they want me to speak in the same location on the subject of politics and the church or the Christian's involvement in politics. Those are things happening tonight and tomorrow night and there are other things going on through Sunday afternoon. If you're in the Sacramento area, check it out at thenarrowpath.com under the tab that says announcements. Times and places and topics will be all listed there. All right, we're going to go to the phones and talk to Rob, calling from Merrimack, New Hampshire. Rob, welcome to The Narrow Path.
Rob: Hi, Steve. Thanks for having me. My question is, I'm sort of estranged from my family, specifically with my sister, a pretty volatile relationship. I'm relatively new to Christianity. My family feels that because my sister gave birth to a child, I'm making a mistake by not going to see the child, but she simply does not talk to me. Is there any sort of biblical scripture or guidance or commands that would force me to have a relationship with this child or my sister?
Steve Gregg: Your sister doesn't talk to you? You're not talking about the child, you're talking about your sister.
Rob: No, we haven't spoken in some years. Now that she has a child, everyone's like, "Why aren't you going to see the child?" I simply say, "She doesn't talk to me."
Steve Gregg: Does she live very far away?
Rob: No, she's 20 minutes away.
Steve Gregg: Okay, so why is it that you haven't gone to see the child?
Rob: Because I don't have a relationship with my sister. I just feel like it's odd just popping up over my father's house, not having spoken to them for some years just because a child was born.
Steve Gregg: I guess I'm curious about why you're not speaking to your sister.
Rob: My sister and I, the relationship's a little complicated to discuss on the radio program, but simply they're habitual sinners and they just don't want to engage in anything unless I do it on their terms. Go to their place and it's just an uncomfortable setting. Me going in as a Christian, they will ask me to not talk about Christ. "Don't bring Him up. We don't care that you're doing the right thing, but we don't believe in that. So just keep that out and just sit with us, love us, and enjoy your time."
Steve Gregg: Obviously they can't tell you not to speak about Christ, but you could recognize that speaking about Christ is not going to get anywhere with them. They're shut down to Him, so there wouldn't be much reason to speak about Christ to them at this moment. It sounds like the very fact they put that rule upon you means they expect you to try to speak about Christ, and that means you've done so before, which means they know what you believe. I don't know of anything in the Bible that indicates that once you've shared the gospel with somebody, you have to bring it up every time you see them until they cave in. I don't think that very many people are converted under pressure from having the gospel preached to them over and over again. Sometimes people need to hear it more than once before they understand it or it strikes them, but this is a sibling of yours. There's no obligation mentioned in scripture for you to carry on a relationship with your siblings. Certainly honoring your parents is a command of scripture, but honoring your siblings more than, let's say, your neighbor, there's no specific thing that says you have to do that. But this child is your nephew or niece and will be for the rest of your life, and it seems very strange to maintain alienation unnecessarily. If the whole reason that you don't want to go talk to your sister is because she won't let you talk about Christ, my guess is that you've talked to her about Christ in the past. That being so, she thinks she's heard it, she doesn't want to hear it every time she sees you, and while everything about our lives is about Jesus, talking about Him doesn't have to be our whole life. There are other things Christians talk about too. Christians talk about lots of things. They talk about their jobs, their relationships, politics, what's going on in their lives, and they don't have to use the word Jesus every time they speak of it. Although if they are living for Jesus, it seems clear that every part of your life is backing up what you have said about Jesus in the past. If they see that you're a consistent follower of Christ, that's probably going to be the best witness they're going to be open to at this point since they don't want to hear it anymore. I can't say that you're obligated to go see your sister's child, but it seems very strange not to do so just because you insist that if you go over there, you're going to talk about Jesus. I talk about Jesus all the time, but if somebody says, "Hey, I don't want to talk about that," I'll say, "Okay." The Bible doesn't tell me to force it on them. Jesus really didn't force Himself on people either. They came to Him. He tried to get away from people, and when they caught up with Him, He'd speak to them because they were hungry, He said, like sheep without a shepherd. If somebody doesn't want to talk about it, I don't think Christianity calls us to insist that they have to talk about it or even listen to it. But there is such a thing as having a relationship with somebody, even a non-Christian like your own sister, and that relationship is more likely to be the factor in the next step in her becoming a Christian if she's ever going to. She's heard about Jesus from you. I think she needs to see what Jesus is like from you. People who talk about Jesus need to be able to live like Jesus so that people can say, "Oh, so that's what you're talking about. I see Jesus in you." Anyway, those are just something you're going to have to work out, I guess, but my thought is she's only 20 minutes away. I can't see why you wouldn't go over there. If you're saying, "I'm kind of peeved because she won't let me talk about Jesus, so I'm not going to have a relationship on her terms," and it kind of sounded that way like you were saying that was the case, I think, what's the other option? Having a relationship on your terms? Being a Christian means you deny yourself and take up your cross and you follow Jesus. You don't demand your terms, you don't demand your way. The Bible says that we should not think about our own interests only, but also the interests of others. If you showed yourself to be concerned about what they're going through, how she's recovering from childbirth if it was recent, how it's impacted their lives to have a baby, how they're doing financially and so forth, that's showing concern. I think you've probably heard the saying, it's a very old one, it says people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. You can tell them all you know about Jesus, but if they don't think you care about them, they may not be very interested in it. They might not think it's changed you enough to be interesting to them. Anyway, those are just thoughts I've had on that. But if I were you, I'd certainly want to see the baby. I'd want to go over there and if they say, "Don't talk about Jesus," listen, I have people in my life that I see occasionally and they don't want to hear about Jesus anymore. They've heard plenty about Jesus and I just don't bring Him up unless they do. Somehow we think, "Oh, then you're compromising." Compromising what? Being a Christian doesn't mean talking about Jesus every time you open your mouth. Being a Christian means you live for Jesus 24/7, and living for Jesus doesn't always mean that you're preaching to people. Your life has to preach to them too, or else your words will not be very effective and they won't be very interested in knowing what you think if they can see that you're kind of a jerk. I'm not saying you are. I'm just saying if that's how they feel, then you're not going to get very far by talking with them, and you'll get no further by not talking to them. I'd say be a Christian in their life and that would be something that would be most likely to create interest in them. The Bible says that people should adorn the gospel. Paul told Timothy that certain people should live a certain way so that they adorn the gospel. To adorn something is to make it attractive. The way you live will either adorn the gospel or very possibly repel people from it. Anyway, those are my suggestions. Let's talk to Scott in Fort Worth, Texas. Scott, welcome.
Scott: Hi there, can you hear me? I was catching up on some of your podcasts yesterday and I think it was the one you did yesterday that you brought up 1 John 3:5-9. You were making mention of sin and that when we become Christians, we do our best not to sin, we should occasionally still sin and that kind of thing. This is a kind of a controversial point because it seems to be real important to me because of what I see in church. It seems like a lot of churches, some churches just have a terrible problem with the congregation being able to praise God in worship, lifting your hands and just having a worship moment. I think it's because they have a lot of bondage on them that they feel sinful and they know that they're missing the mark and so forth. But what the Bible was saying in that scripture, and I'll even read a few of them off here real quick from 5 and 9, it says, "In Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins. And everyone who has been born of God does not sin." Yet I think this is talking about the spiritual side and the fleshly side and this is talking about the spiritual side that we do not sin because it's been paid for once and for all. So it really shouldn't matter. It doesn't matter to God, to Jesus, if we sin. He doesn't see any sin, right? Once we're in Him, we're cleansed for good and it doesn't matter. We should have that changed being where we don't want to sin anyway.
Steve Gregg: So let me see if I understand you. I think what you're saying is this, that when John says he that is born of God does not commit sin, you're saying your spirit is born of God. Your outer man, your flesh, is not born of God. Your spirit is born of God, and therefore although your flesh sins, your spirit does not. I've heard that argument before and the suggestion that God doesn't care if we sin or not. I'm going to have to say I disagree with that. The Bible says that when people sin, God takes it very seriously, like we were talking about the church of Corinth recently on a call to a caller who said that they were misbehaving at the Lord's supper. They were not showing proper reverence and love for the brethren there and it says, "For this reason many are sick and weak among you and some have died." He said, "You're being disciplined by the Lord." Well, if the Lord disciplines a church by letting people die and get sick, I'd be very slow to say He doesn't take sin seriously. Sounds like He takes it very seriously. As far as the idea that our spirit doesn't sin, only our flesh sins, I don't see that in the Bible. Paul's writing to the Corinthians, who he presumes to be Christians, although some of them he might have some doubts about a few of them, but in 2 Corinthians 7:1, he says, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Now, Paul says we need to be cleansing ourselves of filthiness of flesh and spirit. Of course, we have been cleansed in the sense that we've been forgiven if we walk in faith, if we receive grace, and of course if we are walking in faith, we are repentant of our sins. God cleanses us. But if we're still compromising with some sins of our flesh or of our spirit, Paul says you need to cleanse yourself of that and stop that. Of course he is writing to people in the context who were Christians who were also in some cases maybe going to feasts where they sacrificed meat to idols and things like that and eating there. There were compromises of various kinds, but sins of the flesh are not the only kinds that we have. We also have sins of the spirit. So you don't have to agree with me on this, but I disagree with you on that point. I don't think that when he says whoever's born of God doesn't commit sin, I don't think he means there's a part of us that doesn't and a part of us that does. Now I think he's talking about our lifestyles. He's talking about we have a trajectory of life which has rejected sinning as a way of life. But I know the point you're making and I don't agree with that, but I can understand I think what you're saying there. Thanks for your call. Phil in Nassau County, New York, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
Phil: Most thanks for taking my call, I appreciate it. I even enjoy listening to your response to the other people. My question is, does the Holocaust and subsequent re-establishment of the nation of Israel, is that the fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy of the dry bones?
Steve Gregg: I believe the fulfillment of the prophecy of the dry bones occurred back in 539 BC. Ezekiel, you know, and the nation of Judah that he belonged to, were in Babylon. The nation had been very idolatrous, suffered invasion as a judgment from God, carried into Babylon. The prophecies of Ezekiel were addressed to the people of his time who were in fact scattered in Babylon. One of the things that he had was a vision of these dry bones which he says they were very dry, they're in a desert kind of just scattered bones. God said to him, "Can these bones live?" And he said, "I don't know, you know." And in verse 4, God said, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! Thus says the Lord God, "These bones surely I will cause breath to enter you and you shall live and I'll bring you to your own nation again,"'" He said. And then he says, "So I prophesied and there was a rattling and a noise and the bones came together, flesh came upon them, they looked like human bodies but they had no breath in them or no spirit in them. They were not alive, they were more like just corpses standing up." He said in verse 9, "He said to me, 'Prophesy to the wind or to the breath' (same word can mean spirit in Hebrew, 'ruach'), 'prophesy, son of man, and say to the spirit, "Thus says the Lord God, 'Come from the four winds, O breath, breathe on these slain that they may live.'"'" So he prophesied as He commanded me and breath or spirit came into them and they lived and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great company. Okay, so that's basically what he saw and what happened. He says, "Then He said to me, 'Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel and indeed they say...'" He's not talking about some future generation living in the 20th century or 21st century. It's the house of Israel that he belonged to and they were in Babylon. He says, "They say" (this is present tense, not some future generation will say this), "They say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off.'" He says, "Therefore prophesy to them and say, 'Thus says the Lord, "Behold, O my people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves."'" This is not talking about the literal resurrection. This is a figure of speech based on the fact that the scattered nation in Babylon is seen as a bunch of bones that are dead and they have to be raised from the dead. So he's using that imagery of raising them from the dead, but it's the nation that's being raised from the dead, it says. And He says, "And then I will put my spirit in you," which He did at Pentecost, of course, "and you shall live." So basically he sees his own people in his own time are in captivity in Babylon and they have no hope of ever going back to Jerusalem. There's no way that they can imagine it ever happening, their nation is over. And they say, "We, all our hope is gone." He says, "Well, not so much. God can do just things, just like God can raise the dead, just like He can rattle these bones and put them together and put His spirit in them, He can also raise a dead nation that's now in exile and bring them back to life as a nation." And He said He's going to do that. First He's going to bring them back, which He did when the Persians conquered the Babylonians and gave the Jews in Babylon permission to return and build their city and their temple and stuff again. So they did, that happened in 539 BC. Then later He poured His spirit out on them, which was on the Day of Pentecost in the New Testament. So both of these things were fulfilled. Now there is reference in a few places to the new temple that they rebuilt being destroyed, for example, Zechariah chapter 14:1-2 talks about Jerusalem being sacked again. This is after they'd come back and had rebuilt it, it was going to be destroyed again, which it was in 70 AD. But there's no reference after that to any time they'll come back again. Now the prophecy of Ezekiel 37 of the dry bones, that was fulfilled 500 years before Christ and then in Pentecost too. So both parts of it were fulfilled at separate times. But then of course the second temple was destroyed and that was predicted also in a few places. And then there's no prophecies after that of them coming back. So all the prophecies about Israel coming back to the land are prophecies that were made after they had gone, were in captivity in Babylon. So they were fulfilled in that event. So that's how I see that. Okay, Phil?
Phil: You're a very nice guy and you know your subject matter. Thank you.
Steve Gregg: All right, brother. Thanks for your call. All right, let's see here. James in Memphis, Tennessee is next. James, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
James: Yes, thanks to you, Steve, for taking my call. In Matthew where Jesus was speaking in reference to John the Baptist saying of men born of a woman there's none greater than John the Baptist, but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. Was He speaking in reference to Himself, which I think He was?
Steve Gregg: Well, that let me just jump in here because we're going to hit a break. Was Jesus referring to Himself as the least in the kingdom of God? He said John the Baptist, of all men born of women there's none greater than John, but he that is least in the kingdom of God or heaven is greater than John. Is Jesus referring to Himself as greater than John, as He being the least? Well, probably the suggestion that He would be talking about Himself would be because He said that He was the servant of all and that whoever would be chief among you must be the slave of all. So He kind of lowered Himself to that level to being in the role of the least. That is a view that some have taken. I think it would however probably confuse the disciples at this point if He spoke of Himself as the least in the kingdom without any particular good reason to do so. I think what He's probably saying is that John the Baptist lived and died before the kingdom came to fruition and those who come afterwards and are part of the kingdom of God have greater privilege and greater mission than John had. John was able to preach that the kingdom of God was at hand, in fact that was his message, the kingdom of God is at hand. Jesus' disciples once they came into the kingdom were able to preach the kingdom of God has come. And this is I think probably what He's saying is that those who are in the kingdom, even the least of them, are greater, not necessarily greater people, but more significant in terms of their ministry than John the Baptist. In a parallel in Luke it says that among the prophets there was not one greater than John the Baptist, but he that's least in the kingdom is greater. So in other words the ministry of prophecy that John had was the greatest of all, at least of all the Old Testament ones. But the person who has a message of the kingdom of God has a greater message than even John had. That's what I think. Now some people are unconvinced of that and the view you suggest, I've heard that too, and it's possible that it means that but I'm more inclined to think that he's just saying that the significance of someone who's a preacher in the kingdom, even if even the least of such, is more significant, more impactful than even John was, who's the greatest of those who were born once. See, those in the kingdom have been born again. He said, "of those born of women," I think he means merely born of women and not born again. John's the greatest. I don't think John had occasion to be born again because he died before the Spirit was given. I hope that helps. I need to take a break here, but we have another half hour coming up so don't go away. The Narrow Path is a listener-supported ministry. Our website thenarrowpath.com has tons of resources, they're all free, you don't have to donate but you can donate if you wish at thenarrowpath.com. I'm going to take a 30-second break, we'll come back and we have another half hour, so don't go away. In a 16-lecture series entitled The Authority of Scripture, Steve Gregg not only thoroughly presents the case for the Bible's authority, but also explains specifically how this truth is to be applied to a believer's daily walk and outlook. The Authority of Scripture, as well as hundreds of other stimulating lectures, can be downloaded in MP3 format without charge from our website, thenarrowpath.com. Welcome back to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for another half hour taking your calls. Our lines are full, so I won't give out the number at this point, but if the lines open up, I'll give out the number again. I'm speaking tonight and through the weekend in the Sacramento area. For those who are there, anywhere near the Sacramento area, you can check our website thenarrowpath.com and see where I'll be. It's under the announcements link. Because I am on the road, I'm doing the show parked by the side of the freeway, about 20 feet from the freeway where trucks are going by. I usually count on my microphone to be kind of unidirectional and not picking up much ambient noise, but if you happen to hear what sounds like truckers going by 20 feet away, yeah, well that's, don't, you're hearing pretty much what's accurate. That's the way things are here. But if you can't hear it, that's fine. If you want to come hear me tonight or tomorrow or the next day, you can go to thenarrowpath.com and look under announcements. All right, we're going to talk next to Carl in Salinas, California. Hi, Carl. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
Carl: Hi, Steve. I do enjoy your show. I got a question about Apocalypse or Revelation chapter 21 verse 3 and on. My question stems from an idea of interpretation. How through a vision is one who, we're reading a vision, correct?
Steve Gregg: Yes, it's a vision.
Carl: Okay. So when he's saying all of a sudden we hear, "God has made His tabernacle with men." Now is that the same thing, well let me put it a different way, how are we supposed to tell something that's a vision that's supposed to be interpreted in one direction or another and then interpret other portions of the same passage as being a reality? In other words, how much is symbolic and how much is literal? Thank you. You got it right there. How do you do that?
Steve Gregg: All right, well in Revelation we have a special kind of book. There's a few of them like that in the Old Testament, like Zechariah and Daniel, but in the New Testament there's only one book like this and it's called an apocalyptic prophecy and it consists of visions. Like Daniel and Zechariah did, they had these visions and dreams, and in these visions realities were revealed but they were not in literal terms. For example, in Daniel he saw seven animals, a lion, a bear, a leopard, and a beast with ten horns coming out of the sea. Now they didn't represent real animals or coming out of the real sea, they represented nations or kingdoms and we're told that. That's in chapter 7 of Daniel. In chapter 8 he saw a ram and a he-goat fighting and they represented the Persian Empire and the Grecian Empire and so forth. So we can see that it's the nature of apocalyptic visions to use symbolic imagery to represent whatever it is they're talking about. Revelation is definitely the same kind of book, and therefore it's generally the case that almost everything in them is symbolic. It's a symbolic way of telling a story or of giving a prophetic thing. Now there might be some literal things about some of them. For example, when Joseph was interpreting Pharaoh's dream, he saw seven cows, fat cows, coming out of the River Nile and then they were consumed by seven skinny cows. Now that didn't really happen in that way. Cows don't eat cows and they don't usually come up out of the river. But they represented, Joseph said they represented seven years of plenty and seven years of famine. Now of course cows eating cows is an entirely symbolic thing, but the number seven was literal. I mean there were seven cows, so there was a part of it that had some connection to literalness, but not much of it was literal. And so we could see in Revelation and other visions of the Bible, maybe a little bit of literal element, but for the most part really not so much. It's almost all symbolic. Now the vision of the New Jerusalem which you mentioned in Revelation chapter 21, I take it to be symbolic. And yet what is it symbolic of? Well, I believe we're told it is, the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and it comes down to the new earth. He first sees the new heavens and the new earth for the first heaven and earth had passed away, then he saw the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven, presumably to the earth. And then he describes it. Now I don't know if there's really going to be a city coming down out of the sky to the earth per se. I believe there's going to be a new heaven and new earth because there are other parts of the Bible that are not as symbolic and that are not apocalyptic that talk about God remaking the earth and the heavens and renewing the creation and so forth. So I believe that's going to happen. But the description is probably mostly symbolic, almost entirely. For example, the city is described as a cube shape, each dimension 1,500 miles. Now think of the size of that, from the East Coast to the West Coast of the United States is 3,000 miles, so this city, one dimension of it would reach halfway across North America and the other dimension the footprint would go the same amount up into Canada. And then it'd be about 1,500 miles tall as well. Is that really the shape the city is or is it symbolic? It doesn't have any sun or moon to light it, it's the glory of God that lights it and we're starting to get the impression it resembles the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle, which was lit only by the presence of the glory of God and no sunlight or moonlight or natural light got into it. And it was a cube, it was 15 feet by 15 feet by 15 feet. So the city's described in language that reminds us of the Holy of Holies, but it's much larger. Now the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle only one man was allowed to go in there, but this is a huge thing, everyone could go in there into the presence of God. The way into the holiest of all has been made plain by a new and living way through Christ's veil, the flesh, it says in Hebrews chapter 10. So I think the idea is that everybody can fit in there, anyone can come into the presence of God. Now the city is seen clothed like a bride. Now if you've seen a bride in her bridal dress before, now picture that scene, only make the bride cube-shaped, 1,500 miles each direction. That, the bride dress, first of all how do you put a dress on, I mean what, you could I guess you could drape a huge cloth over such a cube, but dress it like a bride really? I mean the idea that the city of God is the bride of Christ is the idea given by this, but the idea that a big cube-shaped city would literally wear a bride's dress is strange in the extreme. And most things are strange about it. It's got 12 foundation stones and they are the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb. Well Paul said in Ephesians 2 that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Now the city has 12 gates and they have the 12 names of the 12 tribes of Israel on them, which Jesus said salvation is of the Jews. You enter into the Christian community through the witness that was given to us by the faithful remnant of the 12 tribes, that is the apostles and the early church, the Jewish church. In other words there's symbolism there to be sure. Now is it also literal? Well I don't think you have to believe it is. I mean I don't think it's given in literal terms. I believe there will be a literal new heavens and new earth once again because this is not the only passage that mentions it and there are some passages that are not symbolic and visionary that mention this fact. But it's probably a description of it that is in symbolic terms. So that's what I'm thinking about that.
Carl: Well you know here's the thought, if there's always been somebody like in the book of Daniel the angel was given to him the interpretation of what the symbolic meaning was, so why do you think we were not given any kind of a person who could interpret the book of Revelation so that in our time we can understand it?
Steve Gregg: Well it's not as important for our time as it is for the time of the people that received it. It was relevant to the people of the first century, to the seven churches of Asia Minor is who it was written to. So the assumption is that the symbols in it would be commonplace enough that they could make sense of it if they're wise and contemplate the matter. It's a little more difficult for us because we're not living in those days, we may not be as familiar with all the symbolism that they were. But that's the way it is with almost all the New Testament books. They weren't written to us, they're written with reference to the people living at that time. We simply have to study in order to understand what the background is and how they apply and how they would apply to us if at all. There's a couple times in Revelation that someone does give an interpretation and it only confuses it more. In chapter 1 he sees Jesus with seven stars in His hand and He's among the seven lampstands. He says, "Okay, I'm going to tell you what this is about." Revelation 1:20: "The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand and the seven gold lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches." Okay, but what are the seven angels of the seven churches? Well, that's never explained. And that's really one of the things in Revelation that people would like to know more about, including me. The only other time I know that they actually give an explanation is in chapter 17, where he sees the beast with seven heads and ten horns and a harlot riding on his back. And he says, "Well, let me tell you what that is. I'll explain that for you." And it's in verse 9 and following in chapter 17: "Here's the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other is yet to come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The beast that was, and is not, and is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition." Okay, I'm, that's about as clear as mud, right?
Carl: Well, no kidding.
Steve Gregg: It's like even the explanations don't help very much. They help somewhat. I think people should not probably just form opinions about the meaning of these things without some serious study and contemplation and comparing scripture with scripture. And I think that's what the readers were expected to do. Hey, I need to take another call. I hope that helps. Let's talk to Raymond in New York, New York. Hi Raymond, welcome.
Raymond: Good afternoon, Steve. Your program is a blessing to us all. We thank you and thank God, of course. My question is Exodus 33:19, where God is telling Moses about meeting him the next day and "I will cause all my goodness to pass before you." And then, as I read it, it looks almost random when he says, "And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Do you see the continuity in that thought, why He said that at that moment?
Steve Gregg: Well, there's two things going on there. One is that God has threatened to wipe out Israel because they've just made the golden calf in the previous chapter. And Moses intercedes and says, "Oh, please don't do that. Don't... you know..." God says, "Listen, Moses, I'm going to wipe them out. I'm going to make a greater nation than them just from you, from your descendants." And Moses pleads with Him, and God says, "Okay, because you interceded, I'll not be as harsh with them as I thought." And Moses said, "Show me your glory." God said, "No one can see my face and live, but I will put you in a cleft of a rock here and I'll pass by and I'll declare my goodness to you," which is His glory, His character. And then God says, "And I'll have mercy on whom I'll have mercy, and I'll be gracious to whom I want to be gracious." Basically, He's saying, if I want to have mercy on you to replace the people of Israel because of their worship of a golden calf, I'll do that. If I want to acknowledge your prayer for them and show mercy to them, I can do that too. I'm the sovereign here, I'm the one who makes all the decisions. And that's part of the declaration of who He is, that He's the sovereign who makes those kinds of choices. But this is in the context where He's going to declare who He is to Moses. And when He passes by and explains who He is there, it's a confusing conversation that Moses has with God on this occasion, but both things are going on. And I think He's addressing both when He says, "I'm going to pass by and declare my goodness to you." That's Him declaring His glory, His character, to Moses. And then He says, "I'll have mercy on whom I have mercy." Moses has just been pleading with Him to have mercy on Israel and God says, "Okay, I'm going to do it. But I'm not doing it because you're making me do it. I do it... I'll have mercy on whoever I want to. Since you asked, and because I like you, I'll do it for you, but it's still my prerogative," I think is what He's saying there. If He means anything different from that, I'm not really sure what it would be. All right?
Raymond: Okay, thank you sir.
Steve Gregg: All right, Raymond. Thank you for your call. Okay, we're going to talk next to Matt in the City of Industry, California. Hi Matt, welcome.
Matt: Hey Steve. So I have a friend of mine that I grew up with in the church. He's been married for several years now, but the past I would say year he's been living as a transgender woman. He says he cannot see any sin in his actions because he experiences a complete painful disconnection between his body and his brain. So how do we minister to somebody who is in this mental state? You know, he does know the Lord, we grew up in the church together. He's unfortunately been led astray by his own understanding and I can't, you know, the Bible doesn't necessarily mention these type of situations, at least to my knowledge, right?
Steve Gregg: Okay, well I'm not sure that we could say the Bible doesn't address this. In Deuteronomy 22:5, it says, "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God." So in other words, to say something's an abomination, it's not just saying, "Well, this is forbidden." An abomination means it's loathsome, it's disgusting. An abominable thing means it's disgusting to God, it's repugnant. So if anyone really wants to follow God, obviously they're going to try to please Him in all things, and they're certainly going to avoid doing things that He says are absolute abomination to Him. So your friend is either ignorant of that fact or he's not as committed to following God as he is to doing what he feels like doing. Now let's face it, if he's not as committed to following God as he is to doing what he wants to do, he's about average, but he's not a Christian. I mean, most people would rather do what they want to do than do what God wants them to do. I mean, it's the very definition of what our desires is, that we desire to do certain things. But to follow Christ, once we know what He wants us to do, if it's different than what we want to do, we have to deny ourselves and do what's right. And frankly, we find out then that God had a better idea. Now if a man thinks maybe all his life he's felt like he's kind of a girly guy or he should be a girl or wants to be a girl, well he could consult his biology to see if God made him a girl or not, because it's not ambiguous in most cases. I mean, there are what they call intersex people who have some ambiguous anatomical traits and whether they're man or woman from birth is difficult to determine, but that's not what transgender is. Transgender is a person who's born one sex and decides they're a different sex. Well, on what basis do they decide? On their own subjective whims, how they feel about it. Now if I felt like I was a lizard because I always liked reptiles and I kind of thought it'd be cool to be a lizard, that doesn't make me a lizard. And if I get so delusional that I convince myself I'm a lizard, I'm still not one. And so the truth sets people free. The devil lies to people, and we shouldn't lie to people. Even if they say, "Oh, if you love me, you should affirm me," no, if I love you, I will not lie to you because lies destroy. So you may have always felt like you're a woman, but all that time you felt that way, you were still a guy. You were born a guy, your biology tells you you're a guy. The only thing that tells you you're not is your mind, and people can be deluded in their minds. Everyone else can look at your biology and tell you what you are. So he should be told that I'm, you know, there's some noise, I'm not hearing everything you're saying, but he should just be told that he is a man and God said that for a man to dress like a woman is an abomination. Apparently they were that kind of people back then too, and so God says, "No, that's not okay, can't be done. It's an abomination to me." See what it is, it's God decided what you would be. You know, when Jeremiah, when He called Jeremiah He said, "When you were in your mother's womb I called you, I knew you." David said that God formed me in my mother's womb, while I was unformed He knew me. So I mean God knows us and creates us and forms us in our mother's womb. And what we come out, and even before we come out now with ultra-scans or what they call them, they can tell, "Is this a boy or a girl?" And so if a child is born one sex and somewhere early in life or late in life they decide they're something else, that's a deception. You don't have to listen to every voice in your head, you don't have to trust every feeling you have. If you do, you know, the Bible says twice in Proverbs, "There's a way that seems right to a man, but the end of that way is death." So if it seems right, if it seems right, it means I feel like it's right. Yeah, but if it isn't right, it's not right. And if it seems right and it's not, you're deluded. And that's what someone needs to be aware of because if what seems right to them causes them to be disobeying the word of God, well, they need to recalibrate their thoughts about things like that. I'm not saying it's easy.
Matt: Yeah, I'm not ignorant to the Deuteronomy verse that you read, I simply was saying that as it relates to his mental crisis in his head about, you know, my brain and my body are disconnected, that's what I meant by or I guess what I was referring to when I say there's no mention in the book.
Steve Gregg: Right. Well if the brain and the body are not in sync with each other, the body's not going to be changed. Even if you have surgery, every cell in your body has the Y-chromosome that males have. No matter what kind of demolition you do to your body and reconstruction of it, all the cells in your body are saying, "I'm a guy. You're a guy." And if you have to take off major body parts in order to convince yourself that your body is now as it should be, you know, here's the thing: if the body is out of sync with what you're thinking, it's a lot easier to change what you're thinking, or at least more healthy, than to change your body. Your body can never become a woman if you're a man. Never can. You can attach all the woman body parts, you're still a man because that's what God made you and you're not going to change that. But you can change your mind. That's what repent means. Repent means to change your mind and this is something that if my body was out of sync with my mind and my mind therefore was mistaken, then I change my mind. You know, transgenderism used to be listed with mental illnesses in the normal authorities on that, and they only changed it for political reasons. But if somebody has a mental illness as they used to call them and still do I guess, you're supposed to work on the mind. If I think I'm terribly paranoid and I think everyone I see is probably going to want to kill me, well, life's going to be miserable for me. But it's not true, not everyone is trying to kill me. So what should a person who works on me do? They should change my mind. They shouldn't just fit me out with a suit of armor so that no one can kill me. They should change my mind because my mind is deluded. And that's what a person needs when they're in that condition. I'm sorry for your friend, it's, I'm not saying it's an easy change. A lot of people are drug addicts and alcoholics and that's not easy to change either, but they have to change if they follow Jesus. So people who are really locked up in sinful things, they got to take Jesus seriously and it's not going to be the easiest thing but it'll be the best thing, something they need to do. All right, we don't have much time but we have more calls. Let's talk to Lindsay in Vancouver, BC. Hi Lindsay, welcome.
Lindsay: Hi Steve. Thank you so much for everything. You're just terrific. Now I need your help. I don't know, I'm Christian but people ask me, "Well, what religion are you?" and I need you to help me out here. When I was 8, I was baptized Protestant. When I was 15, my father had remarried a Catholic, and I was all impressed, she told... told me this whole big box of holy pictures she had, I became a Catholic. But now I do not follow the Catholic faith. And my spiritual readings, two books are Catholic and six of these daily spiritual readings that I do are Protestant. So when people ask me, "They say, no no no, you have to... what are you as a Christian? What am I, Steve?"
Steve Gregg: Well, yeah, I personally am a Christian also and I don't need more modifiers than that. A Christian is a disciple of Jesus. At least that's what the word means in the Bible. In Acts chapter 11 and verse 26, it says the disciples of Jesus were called Christians first at Antioch. So "Christian" was a word that was invented not right from the beginning. Jesus didn't use the term. But when the early disciples spread around the world in one of the cities, people started calling them Christians. But who were they before that? Well, they were called disciples before that. So I'm a disciple of Jesus. That means I follow Jesus. Now if they say, "Well, where do you go to church?" well, I might in fact go to a particular church. I might go to a Protestant church, or I might go to some other kind of church, but that's not what defines me. Where I go on Sunday morning is not who I am. Lots of people go to church and they don't know Jesus or care about Jesus at all, but they're in church. Now it's not where I go to church that makes me who I am. I can go to any church. But I'm a Christian if I'm a follower of Jesus in my life. That is, every day as I live my life, I'm conscious of the fact that I belong to Him, He purchased me, I'm not my own, and my goal in life is to please Him and to obey Him. That's what I am and that's maybe what you are too. You don't need more modifiers than that. You've been listening to The Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us. God bless you.